{"id":995,"date":"2017-09-06T20:01:58","date_gmt":"2017-09-06T18:01:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/wordpress\/?p=995"},"modified":"2017-09-10T20:28:54","modified_gmt":"2017-09-10T18:28:54","slug":"the-quantity-of-pas-habaah-bkisnin-required-for-hamotzi","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/?p=995","title":{"rendered":"The Quantity of Pas Haba\u2019ah b\u2019Kisnin Required for Hamotzi"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>As an introduction, <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> refers to baked pastries which are generally consumed as a snack and not as the staple of the meal the way bread is. Classic examples of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> would be cake, cookies, pie and crackers. BE\u201dH, we will delve into the details of this classification in the following shiur.<\/p>\n<p>The <em>Gemara<\/em> concludes that the proper <em>beracha<\/em> for <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> is <em>mezonos<\/em>, unless one is eating them as a meal in which case one would say <em>hamotzi<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>The generally accepted explanation for this <em>halacha<\/em> is that <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> is intrinsically bread; however when Chazal enacted the <em>beracha<\/em> of <em>hamotzi,<\/em> they only applied it to items which have bread\u2019s unique trait of serving as the primary dietary staple. Baked goods which do not have this trait remain <em>mezonos<\/em>, unless one is treating them as one would usually treat bread.<\/p>\n<p>There are a number of factors to consider when determining whether one\u2019s consumption of these pastries qualifies as \u201cbread-like\u201d, and we will clarify them in order.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Quantity<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The <em>Gemara <\/em>states that if one eats the amount of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> that most people would usually consume at a meal, one must recite <em>hamotzi <\/em>and <em>birkas hamazon <\/em>on them. This quantity does not depend upon this individual\u2019s regular meals, rather there is some standardized quantity for a meal. There are a number of opinions among the <em>Poskim <\/em>regarding the size of this \u201cstandard meal\u201d.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The <em>Maharam Chaviv <\/em>and <em>Perach Shushan <\/em>point to <em>eiruv techumim <\/em>where one is required to place the amount of bread for a meal at the designated location. This is quantified as being the volume of either 3 or 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em>.<\/li>\n<li>The <em>Shulchan Aruch HaRav<\/em> rejects this quantity as insufficient and suggests a different classic quantity. When the <em>mon<\/em> fell in the <em>midbar<\/em>, each individual received an <em>issaron<\/em> (which is the quantity of dough from which one separates <em>challa<\/em> with a <em>beracha<\/em>) of <em>mon<\/em> for his daily consumption, half to be eaten as the morning meal and half as the evening meal. Accordingly, he suggests that half an <em>issaron<\/em> must be the typical size of a meal, which amounts to the much larger volume of 21.6 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em>.<\/li>\n<li>The <em>Gan HaMelech<\/em> and <em>Vilna Gaon<\/em> suggest that none of these specific sums are accurate, rather we must evaluate the size of an average individual\u2019s main meal. If one consumes this quantity of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> one says <em>hamotzi<\/em>, otherwise one recites <em>mezonos<\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Regarding the practical <em>halacha<\/em>, the majority of <em>Sefardi Poskim<\/em> follow the position that 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> is a meal which requires <em>birkas hamazon<\/em>. However, the <em>Chayei Adam<\/em> and <em>Mishnah Berurah<\/em> rule that the primary opinion is the last one; nevertheless, they conclude that one should be stringent for all of the opinions. Accordingly, one should not eat more than 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> and less than a typical major meal; as if one does so there would be a <em>machlokes<\/em> whether one should say <em>mezonos<\/em> or <em>hamotzi<\/em>. <em>Igros Moshe<\/em> and <em>Shevet HaLevi<\/em> concur with this ruling that one should not get into a questionable situation.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Counting other food<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The <em>Magen Avraham<\/em> suggests that when calculating the quantity of food for a meal, we should not only take into account the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> that is eaten; rather, we must also take into account all of the other foods eaten with it during the meal. Accordingly, if one ate a relatively small quantity of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> together with other foods and their combined volume meets the minimal quantity considered to be a meal, one would recite <em>hamotzi<\/em> and <em>birkas<\/em> <em>hamazon<\/em>. The <em>Shulchan Aruch HaRav<\/em>, <em>Chayei Adam<\/em>, <em>Mishnah Berurah<\/em> and <em>Igros Moshe<\/em> all concur that other foods count towards the size of a meal.<\/p>\n<p>However, the <em>Chemed Moshe<\/em> and <em>Birkei Yosef<\/em> challenge this <em>chiddush<\/em> and suggest that one would need to consume the entire quantity solely of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em>, and the <em>Kaf HaChaim<\/em> attests that in fact this is the accepted custom.<\/p>\n<p>The <em>Shulchan Aruch HaRav<\/em> and the <em>Sha\u2019ar HaTziyun<\/em> propose that this dispute is directly connected to the previous one, and the <em>Magen Avraham<\/em> only combines all of the food eaten because he holds that one is only obligated to recite <em>hamotzi<\/em> upon consuming an average full meal. However, according to those who hold that 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> is sufficient for <em>hamotzi<\/em>, this entire quantity must consist of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> and no other foods count towards this amount.<\/p>\n<p>According to this, we can significantly reduce the discrepancy between the <em>Ashkenazi<\/em> and <em>Sefardi<\/em> practices. It is not accurate to say that <em>Sefardim<\/em> say <em>hamotzi<\/em> on 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> and <em>Ashkenazim<\/em> require more than 4 times that quantity, as the larger volume followed by <em>Ashkenazim<\/em> includes the side dishes while the smaller amount followed by <em>Sefardim<\/em> does not.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>The logic behind this distinction is that the source for considering 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> to be a meal is from <em>eiruv<\/em>, and there this is not the total meal but only the bread component of it. A complete meal consists of these 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of bread plus an additional quantity of other foods. Therefore, 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of bread together with other food is a typical meal, while 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of food of which a fraction is bread would not be.<\/p>\n<p>Accordingly, this leads us to the important principle that to recite <em>hamotzi<\/em> on <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> it must be replacing the true bread in a meal and one must be eating it in the manner that most people would typically consume bread. This leads into the next point.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>The amount of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> needed with other foods<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Assuming that we follow the <em>Magen Avraham<\/em> that other foods do combine with <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> to reach the required quantity of food which consists a full meal, is there a specific part of this total which must be <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em>?<\/p>\n<p>It appears to be self-evident that if one eats less than a <em>kezayis<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> one cannot say <em>birkas hamazon<\/em>, regardless of the total amount of food eaten during the meal. According to <em>halacha<\/em> less than a <em>kezayis<\/em> is not considered \u201ceating\u201d, and one does not recite <em>birkas hamazon<\/em> if one did not \u201ceat\u201d bread.<\/p>\n<p>The <em>Shulchan Aruch HaRav<\/em>, following the principle we mentioned above, proposes that the typical full meal consists of 21.6 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of which at least 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> are bread. Accordingly, one would only say <em>hamotzi<\/em> on <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> if one is consuming a full meal which includes at least 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>However, the <em>Aruch HaShulchan<\/em> and <em>Igros Moshe<\/em> criticize the practice of individuals who attend a <em>chasuna<\/em> and wish to avoid washing and <em>bentching<\/em> with the <em>mezuman<\/em>, but still eat significant quantities of food including cake. Doing so in their opinion would in fact obligate one in <em>birkas hamazon<\/em>, and they do not mention as a potential solution to limit the amount of <em>mezonos<\/em> consumed to under 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em>. The implication is clearly that they hold that if the total amount of food consumed is equivalent to what most people would eat at a full meal, it is not necessary for the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> to compromise 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of it.<\/p>\n<p>Nevertheless, <em>Igros Moshe<\/em> does not dismiss the logic that <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> must serve in place of true bread to become <em>hamotzi<\/em>. Rather, he observes that today it is no longer typical to eat 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of true bread during a full meal. Consequently, he suggests that there is a minimum quantity of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> which must be eaten to render it <em>hamotzi<\/em> even when it is eaten with other foods, just that this amount is not a static volume and it fluctuates with people\u2019s eating habits.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Which foods contribute to the total volume?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Again assuming that the <em>halacha<\/em> follows the <em>Magen Avraham<\/em> and we do combine other foods with the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> to reach the required quantity of food needed to render it <em>hamotzi<\/em>, do all foods contribute towards this total or only those eaten together with the bread?<\/p>\n<p>The <em>Derech HaChaim<\/em> suggests that the only foods that can be combined with <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> are those eaten literally together with it, for example spreads or the contents of a sandwich. However, other foods which are eaten separately during the course of the meal do not count towards the total volume.<\/p>\n<p>Similarly, but even more extreme, the <em>Chazon Ish<\/em> questions whether a pastry\u2019s filling can be combined with its surrounding dough, and he leaves this issue unresolved.<\/p>\n<p>However, the aforementioned <em>Aruch HaShulchan<\/em> and <em>Igros Moshe<\/em> clearly do not agree with this limitation, as at a <em>chasuna<\/em> people do not necessarily eat their cake together with the fish and meat.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>In fact, the logic of the <em>Derech HaChaim<\/em> seems difficult to understand, as if the primary issue is whether the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> is serving as a replacement for bread and true bread is not necessarily consumed together with all of the courses of a typical meal, why should <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> require this arrangement?<\/p>\n<p>It seems to me that this difficulty can be resolved with the observation that the <em>Derech HaChaim<\/em> is among the <em>Poskim<\/em> who consider the quantity of a \u201cmeal\u201d to be 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em>; and as we explained above, this only covers the bread portion of the meal and not the other courses. Since we also elaborated that generally speaking this volume must consist solely of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> and other foods to not count towards this amount, the <em>Derech HaChaim<\/em> requires a stricter relationship between the bread and the side dishes than those <em>Poskim<\/em> who follow the larger quantity of a full typical meal. According to the <em>Derech HaChaim<\/em> to count other foods towards the 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <u>bread<\/u> these other foods must be <em>batel<\/em> to the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> and become part of it; however, there is no reason to require this <em>bitul<\/em> to count other foods towards a <u>meal<\/u>.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>In conclusion<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It seems to me that <em>halacha l\u2019maaseh<\/em> an Ashkenazi may not recite <em>hamotzi<\/em> and <em>birkas hamazon<\/em> on <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> unless he is eating a meal which is comparable in size to what most people would consider a typical, full meal. Admittedly, this quantity is not simple to assess. However, it is proper to avoid consuming more than 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> outside of a full meal to avoid getting into a situation where there is a <em>machlokes<\/em> <em>haPoskim<\/em> what one should do.<\/p>\n<p>One should recite <em>hamotzi<\/em> and <em>birkas hamazon<\/em> on <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> if one consumes 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em> of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em>\u2014and perhaps even the amount of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> equivalent to the bread portion of a meal according to what is common today\u2014if one eats in the same sitting other foods totaling the volume of a typical, full meal. They do not need to be eaten literally together with the <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>It appears that there is no need to refrain from consuming a small amount of <em>pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin<\/em> at the same sitting with other foods totaling 4 <em>k\u2019beitzim<\/em>, unless one is literally eating them together.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As an introduction, pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin refers to baked pastries which are generally consumed as a snack and not as the staple of the meal the way bread is. Classic examples of pas haba\u2019ah b\u2019kisnin would be cake, cookies, pie &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/?p=995\">Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"gallery","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-995","post","type-post","status-publish","format-gallery","hentry","category-halacha-berachos","post_format-post-format-gallery"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p2z7Yb-g3","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/995","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=995"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/995\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=995"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=995"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/shaareihoraah.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=995"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}